Curse

Sluggs · Nov 23, 2005, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

If people hate runners so much why dont they make running chars themselves and do free runs.

Because people don't hate runners they hate some of the people they run.

Dax · Nov 23, 2005, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

And what about my other points or will you just convinantly ignore them?

You complain about players skill, i say thats caused by bad players and not the fault of running

you ignored that?

You say that running causes people to buy gold on ebay

sorry but that is rubbish, how exactly does running cause people to buy gold of ebay, what do the runners put a gun to thier head or something?

if you cant come up with a good explanation i will call it rubbish and so will anyone else.

You claimed it caused the impression that running is the way to go.

I said that i never got the impression that you HAD to run. futher more i will state that its people choosing to get run taking the easy option and KNOWING its the easy option, there is no misunderstanding.

How can anyone honestly think that the only way to go through X area is to get run, i bet its the tiniest teeniest smallest amount of players.

again you ignored my points

I said these points were tosh as they are, how exactly do they affect your game? you have no reason and have provided no reason as to why they have a detremental affect to your gaming experience.

If you cant be bothered to back up your arguments i shall call them tosh.

So i challenge you again to come up with one reason as to how running actually affects your gaming experiance and simply saying it annoys you is not good enough without an actual reason.

(and for anyone esle i said one other reason other than twinking the arenas which i think is just plain cheating)

No I didn't ignore your points.. You wanted good reasons, and I gave you some I didn't realize I had to give a essay for each one. Wow seems to me you're pretty defensive about running. If you disagree that's your perrogative. I'm not high and mighty and I'm well aware that I'm not going to change any minds.

Edit (just got home from work):

Ok I'll try to answer your issues, yes I think that players who have a leg up playing through don't have the same experience as those who play through without the help. I've played more than my share of MMO's to see that twinked or powerleveled players are less considerate, impatient, and lack the skills. You may disagree, but thats what I have seen.

I never said it absolutely causes people to buy gold on Ebay, I said it perpetuates the need for large amounts of money, and unethical behavior meaning that if a newb isn't willing to take the time to level the character without 'help', why would they go through the trouble to farm gold?

Yes you definately get the impression that you need to run. Do you think a new user differentiates between the people who have end game armor as someone who has played the game several times or someone who didn't? Do you think they don't listen to people spamming the channel?

And your previous point weren't really worth addressing but I'll give it my best shot. It affects me because I have to play with people like you, if I am to play GW. This isn't meant to be a flame, so I hope it isn't taken that way. As far as the forums are concerned you guys do nothing but bitch and moan about the state of the game and the economy, how you're bored, ect, ect. To me running is one of the reasons the game is in the percieved state it is in.

Let me say again I have nothing against being able to run from one point to another. If you want me to say it takes skill, I'm sure it takes some. But dragging people through doesn't.

So I guess you'll discount this all as 'tosh' or 'rubbish' now, which is an excellent retort BTW. You do realize of course that within your little leet cloistered world that in order for GW to survive is for people to keep buying the game... after awhile aquiring all your end game armor from the start will get boring real quick for many people.

sorry for the offtopic nature of this post... Have a nice day

aron searle · Nov 23, 2005, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

Ok I'll try to answer your issues, yes I think that players who have a leg up playing through don't have the same experience as those who play through without the help. I've played more than my share of MMO's to see that twinked or powerleveled players are less considerate, impatient, and lack the skills. You may disagree, but thats what I have seen.

and i have yet to see proof that that is casued by running and not becasue they are BAD PLAYERS.
My monk was run through the jungle (2nd char 1st was not run anywhere), yet when i do mission i quite often outheal 90% of the other monks, thats because i took the effort to practice my build and THINK about my skills.

Running does not affect skill.

Quote:

I never said it absolutely causes people to buy gold on Ebay, I said it perpetuates the need for large amounts of money, and unethical behavior meaning that if a newb isn't willing to take the time to level the character without 'help', why would they go through the trouble to farm gold?

It does not perpetuate the need for gold as you dont need to be run as you have stated.

And nobody puts a gun to people head and says "no you may not earn your gold you must ebay it".

Quote:

Yes you definately get the impression that you need to run. Do you think a new user differentiates between the people who have end game armor as someone who has played the game several times or someone who didn't? Do you think they don't listen to people spamming the channel?

I played the game through the first time without being run ONCE, i knew that running was a shortcut.

It does not give the impression that you need to get run.

Im sorry but anyone will know that, if they are paying someone to do something for them then they KNOW they are taking a shortcut, and that they dont need to do it.

Quote:

And your previous point weren't really worth addressing but I'll give it my best shot. It affects me because I have to play with people like you, if I am to play GW. This isn't meant to be a flame, so I hope it isn't taken that way. As far as the forums are concerned you guys do nothing but bitch and moan about the state of the game and the economy, how you're bored, ect, ect. To me running is one of the reasons the game is in the percieved state it is in.

What you mean the point about you getting annoyed at peoples moaning, sorry but you dont have to read it and it does not affect your game.

Also i do not wish to play with elitists like you who say how the game SHOULD be played.

I have only been run through the jungle, other than that i have played everymission, and i consider myself to be a good team player.
I never leave, i give advice, and i discourage people being run on their first charachter vehenemtly.

I am simply defending runners as they have never hurt me in game, i have never had problems putting groups together, and some of the most skilled players i have been with have been run.

As to this last bit.

Quote:

As far as the forums are concerned you guys do nothing but bitch and moan about the state of the game and the economy, how you're bored, ect,

So now your putting words in my mouth.

When have i moaned that i am bored with the game?

I love the game, i simply do not wish to replay some mission that are no challenge whatsoever and want ot get to ones that actually require you to be awake to play them.

Elistan Theocrat · Nov 23, 2005, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

I see you only read the first post

Yes, i feel that I only needed to read the first post. Runners Plight? As I said, laughable. No amount of posting beyond the first post is going to change my opinion that whatever rotten thing the runner who started this thread is complaining about is anything less than completely deserved.

Damon Windwalker · Nov 23, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyril Aspect

The problem of the poster above who cannot find grps for missions is only a tangent of running. In reality the bottleneck is the gradual slowing down of sales of GW over time as the market is saturated. This leads ot less and less low level players and consequently less and less players going through the storyline.

No, that's not true at all.

The problem wasn't with the number of players available in any given area - it was the lack of players in a given area who actually wanted to play the game, instead of just getting run. The problem was not with low-level areas - the problem was with higher-level areas, had you bothered to read what I posted.

aron searle · Nov 23, 2005, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

No, that's not true at all.

The problem wasn't with the number of players available in any given area - it was the lack of players in a given area who actually wanted to play the game, instead of just getting run. The problem was not with low-level areas - the problem was with higher-level areas, had you bothered to read what I posted.

What areas are you on about as i only have that problem with augery rock, going ot the 3 other ascention quests and beacons perch, big woot.

On every other mission i have been able to easily find people to play the mission and not run even iron mines.

Dax · Nov 23, 2005, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

I am simply defending runners as they have never hurt me in game, i have never had problems putting groups together, and some of the most skilled players i have been with have been run.

As to this last bit.

So now your putting words in my mouth.

When have i moaned that i am bored with the game?

I love the game, i simply do not wish to replay some mission that are no challenge whatsoever and want ot get to ones that actually require you to be awake to play them.

Hahahahaha... you're too funny. I didn't realise runners needed defending, poor little runners. Sorry I'm not going to quote everything you put down because, it is very easy for you to say I have no proof. All you need to do is read these forums and play the game..

Have you ever though of being a spokesman for the game, that was a good endorsement. Evidently you don't love the game enough to play all the way through, much less staying awake. Hey wait I guess you are now saying the game is boring? What a shocker..

I would think that anyone that has played the game though once, and got the killer armor and weapons would have no problem breezing through them. Heck most people try to make it more of a challenge instead of making it easier. That's sorta like buying a book only to read the parts you like.

aron searle · Nov 23, 2005, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

Hahahahaha... you're too funny. I didn't realise runners needed defending, poor little runners. Sorry I'm not going to quote everything you put down because, it is very easy for you to say I have no proof. All you need to do is read these forums and play the game..

Have you ever though of being a spokesman for the game, that was a good endorsement. Evidently you don't love the game enough to play all the way through, much less staying awake. Hey wait I guess you are now saying the game is boring? What a shocker..

I would think that anyone that has played the game though once, and got the killer armor and weapons would have no problem breezing through them. Heck most people try to make it more of a challenge instead of making it easier. That's sorta like buying a book only to read the parts you like.

Obviosly you dont have enought brains to read

i said i am against running through untill you have first completed it.

obviosly you wont comment on my other parts as you cant come up with good answeres.

/not suprised

Mustache Mayhem · Nov 23, 2005, 04:17 PM // 16:17

I was on a little last night.. in beacons it's so easy to get people to be run for 4k nowdays.. all the players run were on thier 2nd + character- all you have to do is check the money before the run and boot out the guy yelling OMG 4k I gotz 2!!

anyone serious about getting there is going to pay.. it cuts out all these newbies I'm reading annoy high level areas in this thread- and running for free is doing exactly what your complaining about.. anyone who's done 2+ chars knows what's up

Dax · Nov 23, 2005, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

Obviosly you dont have enought brains to read

i said i am against running through untill you have first completed it.

obviosly you wont comment on my other parts as you cant come up with good answeres.

/not suprised

....And you think that most runner check that before they run people?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

So now your putting words in my mouth.

When have i moaned that i am bored with the game?

I love the game, i simply do not wish to replay some mission that are no challenge whatsoever and want ot get to ones that actually require you to be awake to play them.

I love it when I don't need to put words in others mouths.

People are funny

aron searle · Nov 23, 2005, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

....And you think that most runner check that before they run people?

I love it when I don't need to words in others mouths.

People are funny

What drugs are you on?

Ill state it again as you couldnt be bothered to read it.

It is the runees fault for taking a shortcut, they know that paying somebody to take them to x area is a shortcut

Also you seem to not understand the word REPLAY, it means i have completed the game and am playing it again

replay= playin it again

GEDDIT?

Obviosly not as you said that i didnt play it all the way through

GEDDIT?

(EDIT if you cant be bothered to actually explain your points but rahter just say im wrong i will call all you have said complete garbage)

Damon Windwalker · Nov 23, 2005, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

What areas are you on about as i only have that problem with augery rock, going ot the 3 other ascention quests and beacons perch, big woot.

Why should it be a problem anywhere?

And why take the rude tone? Is it that anyone who dares disagree with your esteemed opinion worthy of disdain? I thought this was a "discussion" board - a place to discuss. I expressed that my opinion was mine alone, and merely an opinion.

aron searle · Nov 23, 2005, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

Why should it be a problem anywhere?

And why take the rude tone? Is it that anyone who dares disagree with your esteemed opinion worthy of disdain? I thought this was a "discussion" board - a place to discuss. I expressed that my opinion was mine alone, and merely an opinion.

Apologies for the rude tone

But i dont see the need to exagerate things to support an argument, but yes i take back the big woot bit.
EDIT "AGAIN" (too many edits)back to what you where saying, what areas did you have that problem with damon?

EDIT
And to Dax

Simply put, several arguments as to the anti running view have been put through, and i have put through counter arguments.

you had 2 options

1. counter my arguments / explain what you mean i.e how running actually affects players skill, compared to my argument agains that. Esseintally back up what you state

2. repeat yourself / refuse to address my points / say Dax is right and runners are wrong.

you took option 2, take option 1 and i wont call your arguments rubiish.

Damon Windwalker · Nov 23, 2005, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

Apologies for the rude tone

But i dont see the need to exagerate things to support an argument, but yes i take back the big woot bit.

I did not exagerate. I simply stated personal experience when bringing up one of my characters. I also stated a simple (and clearly stated as such) personal opinion.

You really have no grounds to say that my personal experience was "exagerated" - you weren't there.

aron searle · Nov 23, 2005, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

I did not exagerate. I simply stated personal experience when bringing up one of my characters. I also stated a simple (and clearly stated as such) personal opinion.

You really have no grounds to say that my personal experience was "exagerated" - you weren't there.

Point taken, i must have misunderstood. I thought you were suggesting that you couldnt form teams in high level areas becasue of runners.

ive re-read your post and you say given ares, what are these given ares?

Shimus DarkRaven · Nov 23, 2005, 05:28 PM // 17:28

At the risk of sounding redundant; this arguement will go on til' the end of time. I feel it should be closed before it elevates any further. Enough has been said; and it has strayed away from the main topic anyways.

--The Shim

Damon Windwalker · Nov 23, 2005, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

Point taken, i must have misunderstood. I thought you were suggesting that you couldnt form teams in high level areas becasue of runners.

ive re-read your post and you say given ares, what are these given ares?

Most of it was around the Desert, and some of the first areas right after Drok's (granted - this was a while back - things may have changed since then). Parties started picking back up around ummmm... right before Thunderhead (minus the eternal underrepresentation of monks at Thunderhead lol). Lower areas (riverside and below) always had plenty of people to party up with.

I think the thing that bugged me more than anything wasn't trying to put parties together, as much as:

1. People joining the party just to ask "are you running?" then leaving when told no, it was a mission group.

2. Runners getting pissy and insulting when we would try to clarify the group invitation by saying something along the lines of "Playing, not running" - bashing us, calling us whiners, etc.

Also - it was frustrating to find some of the people who wanted to do the ascention quests at lvl 10 and below - some of those characters are nothing more than "baggage" and would get pissed when we wouldn't take them.

Lately, I've been pretty exclusively up in GF/SF area - and there's always people there looning to play - but there's always people trying to get runners to take them to Granite, too.

aron searle · Nov 23, 2005, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

Most of it was around the Desert, and some of the first areas right after Drok's (granted - this was a while back - things may have changed since then). Parties started picking back up around ummmm... right before Thunderhead (minus the eternal underrepresentation of monks at Thunderhead lol). Lower areas (riverside and below) always had plenty of people to party up with.

The desert was where i had my problems, but it was getting anyone to go with me from augery rock to, well just about anywhere.

Quote:

I think the thing that bugged me more than anything wasn't trying to put parties together, as much as:

1. People joining the party just to ask "are you running?" then leaving when told no, it was a mission group.

Ive only had this problem with iron mines as its the only runnable mission that i know of (but i dont run so dont know if others can be)

Quote:

2. Runners getting pissy and insulting when we would try to clarify the group invitation by saying something along the lines of "Playing, not running" - bashing us, calling us whiners, etc.

The rudeness part is just rudeness and although i may get a little sarcastic on forums (as you well know

) i never get rude in-game.
I am not excusing their behavior, but you have to understand how annoying it is when people say "play the game, dont run" like we are the anti christ.

I will state again i only got the jungle missions skipped with (because i find them too easy), but i can understand why they want to be run more than that.

They want to get from A-B in a quick time and get to what they call the interesting bits.

In essence they are playing the game, but just not how you or i choose or some otheres choose to.

And again there rudeness is not excusable, but to say they are not playing the game is rather annoying (although thats not your intention).

Quote:

Also - it was frustrating to find some of the people who wanted to do the ascention quests at lvl 10 and below - some of those characters are nothing more than "baggage" and would get pissed when we wouldn't take them.

This is what i mean by the Players being the problem and not the actuall running.
If they havnt got the manners or consideration to understand why you dont want a rude little begging level 10 with you, then even if they are level 20 i would still not want ot play with them.

Although i got run, i made sure i was not a burden to anyone.

I hope that explains why i think its bad players and not running that is the actual problem.

Damon Windwalker · Nov 23, 2005, 05:55 PM // 17:55

[QUOTE=aron searle]The desert was where i had my problems, but it was getting anyone to go with me from augery rock to, well just about anywhere.
[quote]

At the time, all of the missions areas themselves were flooded with offers to run the missions. Not having gone with a runner, I donno if they actually could run them or not - but there were a lot of claims.

Quote:

In essence they are playing the game, but just not how you or i choose or some otheres choose to.

And again there rudeness is not excusable, but to say they are not playing the game is rather annoying (although thats not your intention).

No, not at all. We were trying to clarify that we weren't a running group - we were actually playing/fighting. It wasn't an implication that people running weren't playing (although - to be honest, my personal feeling is that "getting there is half the fun" and excessive running is like powerleveling to me - paying someone else to play the game that I paid for lol. Again tho - that's personal perspective and nothing more. How people choose to play the game is their choice).

Quote:

I hope that explains why i think its bad players and not running that is the actual problem.

I think in the end, I would say that it's a combination of both.

Yes, it's bad players - but at the same time, running provides the method for people to get that sense of "entitlement" and to have "bad players" get to higer levels of the game. I tend to think that some "bad players" would either become better players, or be weeded out, if they were forced to work their way through the game rather than running through it. Before the Ascalon Taxi Service became so predominent, a lot of "bad players" got educated by getting kicked out of parties. Now, there's no "teaching" - it's kinda like hiring someone else to go to school and take your tests for you - sure, you get the tests completed, but you didn't really learn anything.

On the other hand - some things amuse me with runners. The other day in Deldrimor War Camp, i saw a call for a runner for someone - they had an unusual goal - to try to map the whole playable world (or at least all the map points) while still a level 3. Unique - doesn't sound like much fun to me, but whatever floats your boat.

Anyway - I'm kinda rambling....lol

aron searle · Nov 23, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

[QUOTE=Damon Windwalker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

The desert was where i had my problems, but it was getting anyone to go with me from augery rock to, well just about anywhere.

Quote:

At the time, all of the missions areas themselves were flooded with offers to run the missions. Not having gone with a runner, I donno if they actually could run them or not - but there were a lot of claims.

I highly doubt they could have unless the missions have changed or they worked in teams, it sounds like they were scammers.

Quote:

No, not at all. We were trying to clarify that we weren't a running group - we were actually playing/fighting. It wasn't an implication that people running weren't playing (although - to be honest, my personal feeling is that "getting there is half the fun" and excessive running is like powerleveling to me - paying someone else to play the game that I paid for lol. Again tho - that's personal perspective and nothing more. How people choose to play the game is their choice).

Agreed i was simply saying that their rude responses where well rude, and that why they might get annoyed at you saying they were not playing the game.

I think in the end, I would say that it's a combination of both.

Yes, it's bad players - but at the same time, running provides the method for people to get that sense of "entitlement" and to have "bad players" get to higer levels of the game. I tend to think that some "bad players" would either become better players, or be weeded out, if they were forced to work their way through the game rather than running through it. Before the Ascalon Taxi Service became so predominent, a lot of "bad players" got educated by getting kicked out of parties. Now, there's no "teaching" - it's kinda like hiring someone else to go to school and take your tests for you - sure, you get the tests completed, but you didn't really learn anything.
snip
Anyway - I'm kinda rambling....lol

I see what your saying, but i think its still the bad players syndrome let me give an example.

Player X gets to the desert at LVL10, he can do the following.

1. run outside on hes own or with henchies and attempt to level up, and practice with builds that will help hes teammates.

2. politly ask or get freinds to help him through missions.

3. beg and wine and be rude if people dont help him powerlevel through the game.

I honestly belive that if anyone choses no.3 then they will never be any good, so i just ignore them and let them do what they want to do.

I can see how blocking running will stop the no.3's but it will also stop it for people like me who dont abuse it, but simply wish to skip missions that i just dont find fun and get to the good stuff (the desert onwards is my preference, i like teamplay and the missions before that dont really require it).